acces c documents settings

I am the administrator, and there are no other users. I upgraded Vista from XP. However, I cannot gain access the the C:\Document and Settings folder. It tells me that I don't have the proper security, and yet, when I check I have all rights to the folder.
I do have acces to My Documents, but not the C:\Documents and Settings folder which I assume contans the My Docments folder.
Thanks
db

In Vista, the "\Documents and Settings" folder that is there is redirected to "\Users" instead. I'm not sure why it doesn't automatically redirect you to the proper folder when you attempt to access it, but I'm guessing that it has something to do with the fact that you upgraded from XP. ---------- Mark Dietz PROnetworks <http://www.pro-networks.org>
DaddyBob wrote:

I am the administrator, and there are no other users. I upgraded Vista from XP. However, I cannot gain access the the C:\Document and Settings folder. It tells me that I don't have the proper security, and yet, when I check I have all rights to the folder.
I do have acces to My Documents, but not the C:\Documents and Settings folder which I assume contans the My Docments folder.
Thanks
db

On Mon, 19 Jun 2006 15:11:01 -0700, DaddyBob wrote:

I am the administrator, and there are no other users. I upgraded Vista from XP. However, I cannot gain access the the C:\Document and Settings folder. It tells me that I don't have the proper security, and yet, when I check I have all rights to the folder.
I do have acces to My Documents, but not the C:\Documents and Settings folder which I assume contans the My Docments folder.
Thanks
db

Might need to take ownership of the files to regain access to them. The directions in the following article are for XP but the steps are relatively the same with Vista. How To Take Ownership of a File or Folder http://support.microsoft.com/default.aspx?scid=kb;en-us;308421
-- Sharon F MS-MVP ~ Windows Shell/User

The file system security in areas like that I have found quiet annoying too. I'm a little paranoid to make any changes to that area as in the past when I have with XP I've managed to lock myself or system accounts out of required areas causing even greater issues.
What I find the strangest is that my account supposedly has full access to my own profile directory, yet it's still needing to boost my security levels? Also, why can I not see C:\Users\%username%\Application Data at all? I need to guess at a directory under that if I want to go further. -- --------------------- Bastard Sheep http://bastardsheep.blogspot.com/
"Sharon F" wrote:

On Mon, 19 Jun 2006 15:11:01 -0700, DaddyBob wrote:
I am the administrator, and there are no other users. I upgraded Vista from XP. However, I cannot gain access the the C:\Document and Settings folder. It tells me that I don't have the proper security, and yet, when I check I have all rights to the folder.
I do have acces to My Documents, but not the C:\Documents and Settings folder which I assume contans the My Docments folder.
Thanks
db
Might need to take ownership of the files to regain access to them. The directions in the following article are for XP but the steps are relatively the same with Vista.
How To Take Ownership of a File or Folder http://support.microsoft.com/default.aspx?scid=kb;en-us;308421
-- Sharon F MS-MVP ~ Windows Shell/User

"c:\Documents and Settings" is now "c:\Users" and "c:\Users\%username%\Application Data" is now "c:\Users\%username%\AppData". And really, the later should be referenced as %appdata%, which goes one level deeper into AppData where the real stuff is.
Ignore the old directories. They're there for some sort of backwards compatibility and are just junction points to the real directories (do a dir /ah in c:\ or your user directory to see). Hopefully they'll document what purpose they serve now or add some more descriptive error dialog than "Access Denied".
"Bastard Sheep" wrote in message

The file system security in areas like that I have found quiet annoying too. I'm a little paranoid to make any changes to that area as in the past when I have with XP I've managed to lock myself or system accounts out of required areas causing even greater issues.
What I find the strangest is that my account supposedly has full access to my own profile directory, yet it's still needing to boost my security levels? Also, why can I not see C:\Users\%username%\Application Data at all? I need to guess at a directory under that if I want to go further. -- --------------------- Bastard Sheep http://bastardsheep.blogspot.com/
"Sharon F" wrote:
On Mon, 19 Jun 2006 15:11:01 -0700, DaddyBob wrote:
I am the administrator, and there are no other users. I upgraded Vista from XP. However, I cannot gain access the the C:\Document and Settings folder. It tells me that I don't have the proper security, and yet, when I check I have all rights to the folder.
I do have acces to My Documents, but not the C:\Documents and Settings folder which I assume contans the My Docments folder.
Thanks
db
Might need to take ownership of the files to regain access to them. The directions in the following article are for XP but the steps are relatively the same with Vista.
How To Take Ownership of a File or Folder http://support.microsoft.com/default.aspx?scid=kb;en-us;308421
-- Sharon F MS-MVP ~ Windows Shell/User

I'm willing to bet that this problem is caused simply by the fact that this is a desktop shortcut. Delete it, and make a new one from the documents folder in the start menu.
"Chris Altmann" wrote:

"c:\Documents and Settings" is now "c:\Users" and "c:\Users\%username%\Application Data" is now "c:\Users\%username%\AppData". And really, the later should be referenced as %appdata%, which goes one level deeper into AppData where the real stuff is.
Ignore the old directories. They're there for some sort of backwards compatibility and are just junction points to the real directories (do a dir /ah in c:\ or your user directory to see). Hopefully they'll document what purpose they serve now or add some more descriptive error dialog than "Access Denied".
"Bastard Sheep" wrote in message The file system security in areas like that I have found quiet annoying too. I'm a little paranoid to make any changes to that area as in the past when I have with XP I've managed to lock myself or system accounts out of required areas causing even greater issues.
What I find the strangest is that my account supposedly has full access to my own profile directory, yet it's still needing to boost my security levels? Also, why can I not see C:\Users\%username%\Application Data at all? I need to guess at a directory under that if I want to go further. -- --------------------- Bastard Sheep http://bastardsheep.blogspot.com/
"Sharon F" wrote:
On Mon, 19 Jun 2006 15:11:01 -0700, DaddyBob wrote:
I am the administrator, and there are no other users. I upgraded Vista from XP. However, I cannot gain access the the C:\Document and Settings folder. It tells me that I don't have the proper security, and yet, when I check I have all rights to the folder.
I do have acces to My Documents, but not the C:\Documents and Settings folder which I assume contans the My Docments folder.
Thanks
db
Might need to take ownership of the files to regain access to them. The directions in the following article are for XP but the steps are relatively the same with Vista.
How To Take Ownership of a File or Folder http://support.microsoft.com/default.aspx?scid=kb;en-us;308421
-- Sharon F MS-MVP ~ Windows Shell/User

I am having the same problem. But after reading the responses to this post, I thought I'd elaborate on it a bit, because it seems like some of the responders might know the answer but are misunderstanding what is happening. So forgive me if I'm wrong, but it's actually not simply an annoyance to me but a big problem.
I use an IRC client called XChat. (Linux users and hardcores will know about xchat.) Instead of having to go through and completely redo every setting for this app, it saves a full day's work to simply copy over the files which, in WinXP, are in the Docs&Sets\<user>\Application Data\Xchat2 folder to wherever the Vista equivilent is. As far as I can tell, it's in the Users\<user>\Application Data\Xchat2 folder.
Unfortunately, even though my security level is "administrator", I cannot even access my OWN Application Data folder. Just get the "Access Denied" and that's it. (I can SEE it, with it's faded little coloring, smirking at me in it's all-knowing way, but can't OPEN it.)
Now...I have gone in and (because that system is not yet connected to the net) changed every permission for that folder I can find (and yes, there are at LEAST 3 levels of it that I've found so far) even all the way to "EVERYBODY" just to be able to get in there, and to no avail...it still doesn't let me in.
Here's one way I can think of to get access: Log into the system as "administrator" sort of like a linux user can log in as ROOT. Unfortunately, I can't find a way to DO that. Can anyone help me out there? I've even tried (with windows explorer) "run as administrator" and STILL come up with the same result. How does one log in as administrator?
-- Takali S. Omega Manager, Raven Mill Computers Owner, SynTaks E-Works Host of TechTAK on KFAR 660am ------------------------------------------------------------ ASUS P5N32SLI Deluxe Intel Presler Pentium D 950 2GB OCZ DDR2-800 2x eVGA 7600 SLI 2x WD 250 SATA2 -------------------------------------
"DaddyBob" wrote in message |I am the administrator, and there are no other users. I upgraded Vista from | XP. However, I cannot gain access the the C:\Document and Settings folder. It | tells me that I don't have the proper security, and yet, when I check I have | all rights to the folder. | | I do have acces to My Documents, but not the C:\Documents and Settings | folder which I assume contans the My Docments folder. | | Thanks | | db

BTW, I have gone into the computer management and UNclicked "account disabled" and this has done nothing for me...
-- Takali S. Omega Manager, Raven Mill Computers Owner, SynTaks E-Works Host of TechTAK on KFAR 660am ------------------------------------------------------------ ASUS P5N32SLI Deluxe Intel Presler Pentium D 950 2GB OCZ DDR2-800 2x eVGA 7600 SLI 2x WD 250 SATA2 -------------------------------------
"DaddyBob" wrote in message |I am the administrator, and there are no other users. I upgraded Vista from | XP. However, I cannot gain access the the C:\Document and Settings folder. It | tells me that I don't have the proper security, and yet, when I check I have | all rights to the folder. | | I do have acces to My Documents, but not the C:\Documents and Settings | folder which I assume contans the My Docments folder. | | Thanks | | db

Hello,
I think the Application Data folder has been replaced by the AppData folder... try looking in there, either the Roaming or Local folder, for the settings you are looking for.
I believe the Application Data folder is there as some sort of application compatability hack for programs, and is completely inaccessible from the shell, administrator or not ... because it is not really a folder, just there to point programs to the new location.
From my experience, any folder with a "ghosted" look and a shortcut icon means that the folder has been replaced by a folder in a different location, and the shell isn't nice enough to move you there when you double-click on the shortcut ;)
- JB

I tried the appdata folder. It does have part of the xchat files init, but not the ones I need access to. They are still hiden, and as far as I know, it's going to the folder everyone's trying to get to. I know the application data folder in docs&sets is a pointer to another folder, but I still think that the one needed is the application data folder inside the user\<user> folder
-- Takali S. Omega Manager, Raven Mill Computers Owner, SynTaks E-Works Host of TechTAK on KFAR 660am ------------------------------------------------------------ ASUS P5N32SLI Deluxe Intel Presler Pentium D 950 2GB OCZ DDR2-800 2x eVGA 7600 SLI 2x WD 250 SATA2 -------------------------------------
"Jimmy Brush" wrote in message | Hello, | | I think the Application Data folder has been replaced by the AppData | folder... try looking in there, either the Roaming or Local folder, for the | settings you are looking for. | | I believe the Application Data folder is there as some sort of application | compatability hack for programs, and is completely inaccessible from the | shell, administrator or not ... because it is not really a folder, just | there to point programs to the new location. | | From my experience, any folder with a "ghosted" look and a shortcut icon | means that the folder has been replaced by a folder in a different location, | and the shell isn't nice enough to move you there when you double-click on | the shortcut ;) | | - JB |

| "Jimmy Brush" wrote in message | || Hello, || || I think the Application Data folder has been replaced by the AppData || folder... try looking in there, either the Roaming or Local folder, for | the || settings you are looking for.
Actually, you were right, though I didn't catch your meaning before. It took me not understanding and then deciding to get my linux-freak wifey-poo-thingie to help me out, but there are a couple ways to find out what goes to where...the way *I* tried was the linux method. This is how I did it:
go to your \users\<username> folder in shell. (Command prompt) type in 'dir /a' and hit enter. (Using the standard dir won't do it. the /a shows you the hidden files also.)
In that list, as with any dir /a results, you will see all the shaded folders show after them the word JUNCTION, which means that the folder doesn't really exist but points somewhere else. (For linux folks, it's the same as SYMLINK) But it also shows you exactly WHERE it points to, which is a nice thing to know if you're trying to get the info I was.
So I apologize for not realizing what you were saying, but at least in not realizing it, I learned a few things instead of just the stuff I was looking for.
The JUNCTION/SYMLINK idea isn't really used much in earlier version of windows, as far as I know. In Windows Vista, they had to do something to accomodate older applications, such as my xchat, which have settings for each user and want to continue using the folder "Documents and Settings"
Also, the way I see it is that it doesn't matter what you set for permissions on these "junction" folders, because they don't really exist. So trying to open one of those folders is not going to work. They aren't really there to USE, just as a pointer for those older programs.
I hope that, between Mr Brush's answer, and my ramblings for the people who didn't want to pay attention to him or get what he said, this makes sense. Maybe MS will find a way to make the junction folders point to the proper folders more like a shortcut does if you double-click on it.
-- Takali S. Omega Manager, Raven Mill Computers Owner, SynTaks E-Works Host of TechTAK on KFAR 660am ------------------------------------------------------------ ASUS P5N32SLI Deluxe Intel Presler Pentium D 950 2GB OCZ DDR2-800 2x eVGA 7600 SLI 2x WD 250 SATA2 -------------------------------------

<snip>

go to your \users\<username> folder in shell. (Command prompt) type in 'dir /a' and hit enter. (Using the standard dir won't do it. the /a shows you the hidden files also.)

Nice tip! I didn't think cmd would show junctions ... awesome.
Hopefully in the future the shell will follow junctions to their correct location. :)
- JB

"Jimmy Brush" wrote in message | <snip> | > go to your \users\<username> folder in shell. (Command prompt) | > type in 'dir /a' and hit enter. (Using the standard dir won't do it. the | > /a shows you the hidden files also.) | | Nice tip! I didn't think cmd would show junctions ... awesome. | | Hopefully in the future the shell will follow junctions to their correct | location. :) | | - JB
That's what I am hoping. To be honest, I wouldn't have thought of the dir /a if it hadn't been for my linux-freakoid-wifey-poo-thingie. (The LFWPT) Most of us windows-trapped people are stuck with what we can do with a mouse, so the credit goes to her for that. But, again, if you start remembering the way things were with DOS way back when, you will get a LOT farther with this beta than trying to use XP knowledge.

2 things are going on here: 1- All users are 'demoted' to a general user security status. This is part of UAC. Even accounts that are set as Administrator in their user accounts. There is a registry key for this, but the whole UAC has several registry keys. you cannot disable just this one and address this 'issue' 2- For backward compatability folders such as 'Documents and Settings' 'AppData' etc are junctions or symlinks to new locations. 'Docs and Settings' is 'C:\Users' "My Documents" is just "Documents" etc.
I have found that the security set up on these folders is a little odd. It does not let you browse thru them to the new locations (this maybe is to force users to learn/use the new locations?), but apps that install or use this can -(must have System permissions?) and this is not consistent either, i have had problems installing that i think were related to this.
"DaddyBob" wrote:

I am the administrator, and there are no other users. I upgraded Vista from XP. However, I cannot gain access the the C:\Document and Settings folder. It tells me that I don't have the proper security, and yet, when I check I have all rights to the folder.
I do have acces to My Documents, but not the C:\Documents and Settings folder which I assume contans the My Docments folder.
Thanks
db

Hello,
The junctions are there ONLY to allow applications that access files inside of them to work. They are not designed to let applications do a directory list on them. Let me explain in detail:
Let's say you upgraded from Windows XP to Vista. You use Microsoft office, and on your recent file list, is a file in c:\documents and settings\joe\file.doc.
The application compatibility junctions ensure that accessing this entry in your recent file list still works.
The junction is NOT there to allow you to browse to c:\documents and settings\ and see the files in c:\users\.
This is why these junctions are deeply hidden - you have to change two settings to see them!
Also, Windows Vista security is set up so that you have to give a program permission to use 'administrator' settings via a prompt. This is not an 'issue', this is how Vista works. Programs that do not request admin permissions do not receive them.
-- - JB Microsoft MVP - Windows Shell/User
Windows Vista Support Faq http://www.jimmah.com/vista/

It is an 'issue' to the consumer; unless Microsoft wants to play a blame game and pass the buck to poor app programming by their partners...oh wait, "Partner" means that they wouldnt throw them under the bus...so that isnt the way to go. As i recall, Gates himself touts their strong partner relationships as one of their greatest strengths. (see Vista prelaunch in New York video) Have you installed Adobe Reader 8 to your Vista machine? you get the admin prompt, but it still fails. You have to start it yourself <run as administartor> and then the app gets the right permissions. so yes it prompts, but doesnt do the "handoff" very well. Seen this with other apps as well (ATI catalyst).
Lets talk UAC for a second, Great Idea, poor execution. why have a setting that you see in the GUI and set, yet in the registry that setting is nullified; whereas to all appearances, you think you set it correctly? now you start troubleshooting "i am an admin on my pc, why is it acting like i am not? Admin in Vista means you are allowed to enter admin credentials so the process can continue. and again, that pass off isnt executed well.
have you tried to share a folder from a Vista machine to an XP machine? You set a share permission for the user, they can authenticate, but the security on the folder is set so that users (which you are even if you set your account as admin) are denied control. So thinking along the lines of 'least privelege' you are not allowed FULL perms like you set in the Share permissions. And XP is not getting the 'admin prompt' to credential your activity. You arent sharing like you thougt. I am working on this one now.
The Vista product was not ready to ship ((EX: change location of Documents <properties of the folder/location tab> in your Users Profile folder, and it works....but that location change should also change the junction that still points to C:/users. Or you install an app that references it, and it gets created again, and now you have 2 Documents folders. took me a 2 seconds to logically realize that)) I am not bahsing it, what works is awesome, but overall, users are going to get a bad experience (and wouldnt you agree that most of the features and marketing are aimed at home users; which are definitely not skilled enough to deal with this.
Would be happy to continue this discussion...if i am off the mark i would be happy to learn how it is really working so i can teach/train/support/use the product. If this is close to the truth, then lets get it out there so peeps can be aware and correct their issues. :-) "Jimmy Brush" wrote:

Hello,
The junctions are there ONLY to allow applications that access files inside of them to work. They are not designed to let applications do a directory list on them. Let me explain in detail:
Let's say you upgraded from Windows XP to Vista. You use Microsoft office, and on your recent file list, is a file in c:\documents and settings\joe\file.doc.
The application compatibility junctions ensure that accessing this entry in your recent file list still works.
The junction is NOT there to allow you to browse to c:\documents and settings\ and see the files in c:\users\.
This is why these junctions are deeply hidden - you have to change two settings to see them!
Also, Windows Vista security is set up so that you have to give a program permission to use 'administrator' settings via a prompt. This is not an 'issue', this is how Vista works. Programs that do not request admin permissions do not receive them.
-- - JB Microsoft MVP - Windows Shell/User
Windows Vista Support Faq http://www.jimmah.com/vista/

It is an 'issue' to the consumer;

Of course. However, this issue is transient, as it is based on application compatibility - applications will BECOME compatible in the future.
It's a chicken and egg scenario. Apps break if you change the OS. You don't want to change the OS until apps work with it, yet apps won't change unless people are using the OS. Someone has to make the first move, and there will be a lag time for the other party to catch up.

unless Microsoft wants to play a blame game and pass the buck to poor app programming by their partners...oh wait, "Partner" means that they wouldnt throw them under the bus...so that isnt the way to go.

There IS fault in the programming community for not writing applications that follow basic guidelines on how to work with the OS (including XP!) as a standard user. These are the programs that fail the hardest on Vista (the programs that always assume the user is an admin, which is AS MUCH AN INVALID ASSUMTION in XP, even though it was generally true).
It is ALSO MS's fault for not previously enforcing their programming requirements in the OS and making it difficult for software developers to implement the best practices that they recommended.
And it is also the USER'S fault for not being more proactive about security.
But there's no sense playing the blame game - the fact is, the way it WAS BEFORE in XP wasn't working, reagrdless of whose fault it was; so something had to be done, and that something is UAC. UAC is a way to get the majority of people in the world running in a standard user environment (admin-on-demand) and yet be able to easily put on an 'admin' cap in order to do admin related tasks, in a way that is intuitively understandable by the average user.
The game is this: If you want all of the programs that have ever been made to work on a new OS, you *cant change the OS*, since ANY change will break SOME program. The bigger the changes, the bigger the breakage.
UAC strives heavily to work around faulty applications; however, there will be some collateral damage, and that is unavoidable. The road to the future is paved over non-compliant and non-supported applications and hardware.

As i recall, Gates himself touts their strong partner relationships as one of their greatest strengths. (see Vista prelaunch in New York video) Have you installed Adobe Reader 8 to your Vista machine? you get the admin prompt, but it still fails. You have to start it yourself <run as administartor> and then the app gets the right permissions. so yes it prompts, but doesnt do the "handoff" very well. Seen this with other apps as well (ATI catalyst).

This is completely ADOBE'S FAULT. Not Vista's.
And for the record, I installed Adobe Reader 8 without a hitch. And as an aside, I LOVE what they've done with it! It's the first acrobat/reader that has come out of Adobe in 10 years that I haven't felt embarassed to install.

Lets talk UAC for a second, Great Idea, poor execution. why have a setting that you see in the GUI and set, yet in the registry that setting is nullified; whereas to all appearances, you think you set it correctly?

Don't know what you mean here - can you give a specific example?

now you start troubleshooting "i am an admin on my pc, why is it acting like i am not? Admin in Vista means you are allowed to enter admin credentials so the process can continue. and again, that pass off isnt executed well.

This "pass of" is executed perfectly. Programs launched via a prompt run with the full rights of the user. Programs that don't prompt do not run as an admin.
This can be frustrating for users - primarily due to LEGACY PROGRAMS that don't prompt. All Vista-compatible programs will prompt when necessary, so this will be less and less of a problem as the future rolls on by.

have you tried to share a folder from a Vista machine to an XP machine? You set a share permission for the user, they can authenticate, but the security on the folder is set so that users (which you are even if you set your account as admin) are denied control. So thinking along the lines of 'least privelege' you are not allowed FULL perms like you set in the Share permissions. And XP is not getting the 'admin prompt' to credential your activity. You arent sharing like you thougt. I am working on this one now.

In this regard, the sharing in VISTA works exactly like it did in XP. "Share" permissions have never overriden the security permission on files - the least of both permissions always has taken effect. This has been true since the early days of Windows NT.
Also, Vista does not allow you to use your admin power remotely by default; so, if you are trying to access a file that administrators can only access, you will be denied, even if authenticated as an admin; you can change this - see my website for more info.

The Vista product was not ready to ship ((EX: change location of Documents properties of the folder/location tab> in your Users Profile folder, and it works....but that location change should also change the junction that still points to C:/users. Or you install an app that references it, and it gets created again, and now you have 2 Documents folders. took me a 2 seconds to logically realize that))

This is unrelated to UAC :). However, I agree that this feature is sorely lacking in functionality. Vista definately has rough edges, primarily in functionality that MS doesn't expect most users to use and where the bugs aren't very severe.

I am not bahsing it, what works is awesome, but overall, users are going to get a bad experience (and wouldnt you agree that most of the features and marketing are aimed at home users; which are definitely not skilled enough to deal with this.

I agree that users using poorly compatible applications will not get a great experience. However, this ALWAYS happens when a new OS is released; it is not a "problem" with Vista specifically, but a problem that is always experienced when things change, regardless of OS, and in fact, is a general problem that can be applied to pretty much any scenario.
I disagree that Vista's features are aimed soley at home users. There are many, many features that are cool for business that aren't immediately visible. (Reworked network stack increases throughput in high-bandwith-high-latency connections; Increased number of group policy configurations available; Awesome new features in task scheduling, event logs, and performance monitoring; Many more command-line administrative utilities; Completely new, completely customizable image-based deployment capabilities; just to name a few).
Basically what you are saying is that UAC is different than the way Windows XP does security. And I would agree with you 100%. However, we seem to disagree on whether this is a good thing. Is change always bad? Are you saying that UAC is bad *because it doesn't work like XP did*? If that's not what you are saying, then what exactly would you have UAC do that it doesn't do now?

Would be happy to continue this discussion...if i am off the mark i would be happy to learn how it is really working so i can teach/train/support/use the product. If this is close to the truth, then lets get it out there so peeps can be aware and correct their issues. :-)

This is a favorite topic of mine :)
-- - JB Microsoft MVP - Windows Shell/User
Windows Vista Support Faq http://www.jimmah.com/vista/

On Sun, 4 Feb 2007 23:32:51 -0500, "Jimmy Brush" wrote:

And it is also the USER'S fault for not being more proactive about security.

Hear! Hear!

well put. i agree with a lot of your comments there. particularly whereas programmers did start disregarding what might be called best practice and started instructing users and admins alike to set users as local admin on the local machine.
There is a definite need for users to step up and take responsibility for some of their own computer problems.
Good discussion, thanks for chatting.
i am going to start another post on the Users Profile folder if you want to check that out.
"Jimmy Brush" wrote:

It is an 'issue' to the consumer;
Of course. However, this issue is transient, as it is based on application compatibility - applications will BECOME compatible in the future.
It's a chicken and egg scenario. Apps break if you change the OS. You don't want to change the OS until apps work with it, yet apps won't change unless people are using the OS. Someone has to make the first move, and there will be a lag time for the other party to catch up.
unless Microsoft wants to play a blame game and pass the buck to poor app programming by their partners...oh wait, "Partner" means that they wouldnt throw them under the bus...so that isnt the way to go.
There IS fault in the programming community for not writing applications that follow basic guidelines on how to work with the OS (including XP!) as a standard user. These are the programs that fail the hardest on Vista (the programs that always assume the user is an admin, which is AS MUCH AN INVALID ASSUMTION in XP, even though it was generally true).
It is ALSO MS's fault for not previously enforcing their programming requirements in the OS and making it difficult for software developers to implement the best practices that they recommended.
And it is also the USER'S fault for not being more proactive about security.
But there's no sense playing the blame game - the fact is, the way it WAS BEFORE in XP wasn't working, reagrdless of whose fault it was; so something had to be done, and that something is UAC. UAC is a way to get the majority of people in the world running in a standard user environment (admin-on-demand) and yet be able to easily put on an 'admin' cap in order to do admin related tasks, in a way that is intuitively understandable by the average user.
The game is this: If you want all of the programs that have ever been made to work on a new OS, you *cant change the OS*, since ANY change will break SOME program. The bigger the changes, the bigger the breakage.
UAC strives heavily to work around faulty applications; however, there will be some collateral damage, and that is unavoidable. The road to the future is paved over non-compliant and non-supported applications and hardware.
As i recall, Gates himself touts their strong partner relationships as one of their greatest strengths. (see Vista prelaunch in New York video) Have you installed Adobe Reader 8 to your Vista machine? you get the admin prompt, but it still fails. You have to start it yourself <run as administartor> and then the app gets the right permissions. so yes it prompts, but doesnt do the "handoff" very well. Seen this with other apps as well (ATI catalyst).
This is completely ADOBE'S FAULT. Not Vista's.
And for the record, I installed Adobe Reader 8 without a hitch. And as an aside, I LOVE what they've done with it! It's the first acrobat/reader that has come out of Adobe in 10 years that I haven't felt embarassed to install.
Lets talk UAC for a second, Great Idea, poor execution. why have a setting that you see in the GUI and set, yet in the registry that setting is nullified; whereas to all appearances, you think you set it correctly?
Don't know what you mean here - can you give a specific example?
now you start troubleshooting "i am an admin on my pc, why is it acting like i am not? Admin in Vista means you are allowed to enter admin credentials so the process can continue. and again, that pass off isnt executed well.
This "pass of" is executed perfectly. Programs launched via a prompt run with the full rights of the user. Programs that don't prompt do not run as an admin.
This can be frustrating for users - primarily due to LEGACY PROGRAMS that don't prompt. All Vista-compatible programs will prompt when necessary, so this will be less and less of a problem as the future rolls on by.
have you tried to share a folder from a Vista machine to an XP machine? You set a share permission for the user, they can authenticate, but the security on the folder is set so that users (which you are even if you set your account as admin) are denied control. So thinking along the lines of 'least privelege' you are not allowed FULL perms like you set in the Share permissions. And XP is not getting the 'admin prompt' to credential your activity. You arent sharing like you thougt. I am working on this one now.
In this regard, the sharing in VISTA works exactly like it did in XP. "Share" permissions have never overriden the security permission on files - the least of both permissions always has taken effect. This has been true since the early days of Windows NT.
Also, Vista does not allow you to use your admin power remotely by default; so, if you are trying to access a file that administrators can only access, you will be denied, even if authenticated as an admin; you can change this - see my website for more info.
The Vista product was not ready to ship ((EX: change location of Documents properties of the folder/location tab> in your Users Profile folder, and it works....but that location change should also change the junction that still points to C:/users. Or you install an app that references it, and it gets created again, and now you have 2 Documents folders. took me a 2 seconds to logically realize that))
This is unrelated to UAC :). However, I agree that this feature is sorely lacking in functionality. Vista definately has rough edges, primarily in functionality that MS doesn't expect most users to use and where the bugs aren't very severe.
I am not bahsing it, what works is awesome, but overall, users are going to get a bad experience (and wouldnt you agree that most of the features and marketing are aimed at home users; which are definitely not skilled enough to deal with this.
I agree that users using poorly compatible applications will not get a great experience. However, this ALWAYS happens when a new OS is released; it is not a "problem" with Vista specifically, but a problem that is always experienced when things change, regardless of OS, and in fact, is a general problem that can be applied to pretty much any scenario.
I disagree that Vista's features are aimed soley at home users. There are many, many features that are cool for business that aren't immediately visible. (Reworked network stack increases throughput in high-bandwith-high-latency connections; Increased number of group policy configurations available; Awesome new features in task scheduling, event logs, and performance monitoring; Many more command-line administrative utilities; Completely new, completely customizable image-based deployment capabilities; just to name a few).
Basically what you are saying is that UAC is different than the way Windows XP does security. And I would agree with you 100%. However, we seem to disagree on whether this is a good thing. Is change always bad? Are you saying that UAC is bad *because it doesn't work like XP did*? If that's not what you are saying, then what exactly would you have UAC do that it doesn't do now?
Would be happy to continue this discussion...if i am off the mark i would be happy to learn how it is really working so i can teach/train/support/use the product. If this is close to the truth, then lets get it out there so peeps can be aware and correct their issues. :-)
This is a favorite topic of mine :)
-- - JB Microsoft MVP - Windows Shell/User
Windows Vista Support Faq http://www.jimmah.com/vista/

Hi Mark... Just a quick note: no, it isn't because of an XP upgrade... I have a new laptop with Vista installed from factory and I'm so unhappy with all the security / folder assignment issues that I actually thought about downgrading to XP...
I have the same "No access to C:\ Documents and Settings" message...
I got tired of making many directories in my Computer NOT "Read-Only" to press Yes and right after it goes back to Read-Only...
And to try to move a folder into a different folder and get 2 options: Try Again (which doesn't work) and Cancel (which works), but since I have administrative rights AND I'm the owner of the folder, shouldn't I be able to do whatever I want?
Wow, a quick note became a BIG one...
I'll start a new topic...lol...
"Mark Dietz" wrote:

In Vista, the "\Documents and Settings" folder that is there is redirected to "\Users" instead. I'm not sure why it doesn't automatically redirect you to the proper folder when you attempt to access it, but I'm guessing that it has something to do with the fact that you upgraded from XP. ---------- Mark Dietz PROnetworks <http://www.pro-networks.org
DaddyBob wrote: I am the administrator, and there are no other users. I upgraded Vista from XP. However, I cannot gain access the the C:\Document and Settings folder. It tells me that I don't have the proper security, and yet, when I check I have all rights to the folder.
I do have acces to My Documents, but not the C:\Documents and Settings folder which I assume contans the My Docments folder.
Thanks
db

Hello,
"Documents and Settings" no longer exists as a folder in Windows Vista.
This foler has been replaced by the "Users" folder. You will need to use it from now on.
If you have enabled the showing of operating system files, you will see something that looks like a folder called "Documents and Settings", but it actually is NOT a folder and does not contain any files. It is only there to provide application compatability for some programs.
-- - JB Microsoft MVP Windows Shell/User
"Dgerio" wrote in message

Hi Mark... Just a quick note: no, it isn't because of an XP upgrade... I have a new laptop with Vista installed from factory and I'm so unhappy with all the security / folder assignment issues that I actually thought about downgrading to XP...
I have the same "No access to C:\ Documents and Settings" message...
I got tired of making many directories in my Computer NOT "Read-Only" to press Yes and right after it goes back to Read-Only...
And to try to move a folder into a different folder and get 2 options: Try Again (which doesn't work) and Cancel (which works), but since I have administrative rights AND I'm the owner of the folder, shouldn't I be able to do whatever I want?
Wow, a quick note became a BIG one...
I'll start a new topic...lol...
"Mark Dietz" wrote:
In Vista, the "\Documents and Settings" folder that is there is redirected to "\Users" instead. I'm not sure why it doesn't automatically redirect you to the proper folder when you attempt to access it, but I'm guessing that it has something to do with the fact that you upgraded from XP. ---------- Mark Dietz PROnetworks <http://www.pro-networks.org
DaddyBob wrote: I am the administrator, and there are no other users. I upgraded Vista from XP. However, I cannot gain access the the C:\Document and Settings folder. It tells me that I don't have the proper security, and yet, when I check I have all rights to the folder.
I do have acces to My Documents, but not the C:\Documents and Settings folder which I assume contans the My Docments folder.
Thanks
db